INEOS GRENDIER - What do you guys think?

The old Defender fell foul of emissions, and it had no safety kit.
Land Rover only managed to keep it going as long as they did, by registering it as a commercial vehicle in 2011.

lt was a legacy of the lack of investment in the vehicle, which hadn't changed much since the 1980's.

There's plenty around for those who still want one.

DrRobin wrote: After all if the Defender was still going to be a good seller today, why was it dropped?

lightning wrote: The old Defender fell foul of emissions, and it had no safety kit.
Land Rover only managed to keep it going as long as they did, by registering it as a commercial vehicle in 2011.

The Defender always sold reasonably well for what it was. But there is far more to the story.

In the court case with Ineos last year, Land Rover were unable to produce any marketing material for the Defender from 2010. And in reality since about the year 2000 they had not really tried to market or sell the vehicle. Therefore sales will have been kept low because of this.

And indeed, if you'd gone into a Land Rover dealership in say 2013, there would have been a very good chance they wouldn't even have had a Defender there. And likely would have had no real interest in selling you one. Their focus changed to up market fashion accessories. Not work vehicles.

As for the reasons it was taken out of production. It most certainly wasn't emissions. Despite what JLR's marketing team may have claimed. The same engine was used in the Ford Ranger, which by and large is fundamentally a very similar vehicle. Big, heavy, ladder chassis, body on frame and a live axle. If the Ranger could meet emissions, so too would the Defender have.

I also don't believe the line about safety either. I have been unable to find anyone who can identify what specific safety regs it would have failed on. Or couldn't have easily been made to meet. Remember the Jeep Wrangler and our Suzuki Jimny's, plus the majority of pickup trucks on sale are all built in fundamentally the same way. Only the body construction of the Defender is slightly different.

I believe the real reason for the Defender demise was money and capacity. The Defender's production line was manpower heavy (i.e. lots of people) and the vehicles were labour intensive to build (duration to complete and number of people required). By scraping the line, the company could axe many jobs and lower head count. And replace it with a modern production line (such as the Discovery Sport). Which requires very few people and is largely automated. Thus JLR could build a different vehicle for less money, sell it for the same or more money and build more of them a year.

lightning wrote: lt was a legacy of the lack of investment in the vehicle, which hadn't changed much since the 1980's.

To some degree this is true. But that is a little unfair. The vehicle changed a lot over the years, but it was evolutionary change, not radical change. Pretty much every part of it was updated and changed at least once. And while many of the new parts could be backwards compatible, it doesn't mean there wasn't change.

Change existed in the doors, windows, drive train, braking, engines, gearboxes, axles, interior, HVAC, NVH, body panels and even the chassis.

In fact over the course of the production run no less than 13 different engines were fitted to the "Defender" vehicle. Which can be extended to 15 or 16 different engines if you include some of the more unique offerings. And at least 6 different gearbox types.

300bhp, I think your point about automation and expensive British labour is a fair one, that may have been a contributing factor. However what was it that made JLR change the make-up of the defender so much? They could have easily engineered an automated pulse build line and kept the vehicle 'barebones'. I've no doubt that JLR engineers have the talent to design something very similar to the grenadier if not better, but the fact is they chose not too and pursued a different genre of vehicle all together which has moved so far away from the defender concept.

Having worked in the engineering industry all my life, I can categorically say that introducing a completely new design concept will have been hugely more expensive than giving the defender a 2020 facelift, perhaps making it more refined, more modern and more capable.

I think the big wigs at JLR have made a huge strategic error here, they'll probably live to regret that going forwards. (INEOS made clear when they launched the grenadier, they actually offered to buy the manufacturing rights for the defender and that was declined by JLR...)

I've owned several Defenders, Series and Disco's over the years and have been waiting to see what the new Defender was going to be like since 2004. If I was going to recommend a 4x4 for heavy duty utility or overlanding I'd always recommend Toyota (see below) and that's were I was going, pending the launch of the new Defender.

My view for what it's worth:20
1. Visited Lode Lane to view the new Defender last year. Key points:
- Moving away from the chassis was partly engineering driven, partly cost driven - a monocoque can be designed to give a better strength (mainly torsion stiffness) than a ladder frame, has a more predictable crash signature (for sensors and crumple zone). All car manufacturers want a common chassis architecture ie same floor pan and running gear configuration for multiple models - easier to make and common parts therefore lower cost.
- A huge amount of capability - it will probably perform extremely well both off and on-road compared to the Land Cruiser etc
- Lots of driver assist technology
- Interior not really designed for a utility user but we'll have to see what the commercial version is like
- Price point - as above but before they stopped making the Defender, it was pretty good value for money albeit an acquired taste (noisy, leaky, narrow and cold).
- Andrew Simpier-White (4xOverland - New Zealand) did a desk top review before the new Defender was released but his summary was spot on. In essence he said the new Defender is like an Apple Mac. Superb design, fantastic capability but the user can't fix it or easily add accessories or modifications.
- The same could apply to the latest Land Cruiser and Hi-Lux.
- I'd probably add that Land Rover lost the utility market in Africa and the Middle East in the late 70's and missed the small 'truck' wave in the US so the market is now full of twin cabs. The target audience for the new Defender is really people who want to be associated with adventure and offroad travel, rather than those that actually do it (and it's a bigger and more profitable market). I'll keep an open mind until they release the utility version.
- Military - UKMOD launched it's Land Rover Replacement Programme some years ago and Land Rover didn't join in. I doubt that the Grenadier will be seen in the military apart from light duty muli-purpose. The days of using a modified civilian vehcile for combat operations are long gone.

VS the Grenadier?
- Until I've seen one in the flesh difficult to say but they are using the right running gear.
- Looks like what LR should have done
- you can get a Euro pallet in the back
- Price - compared to a Toyota Hi-Lux Invincible (£40K) - probably similar
- Big issue for me is service and support:
- Overland - you will always find someone who can fix a Toyota
- I wouldnt be surprised if BMW provide service and support and longer term I can see the relationship between Ineos and BMW becoming closer because BMW don't have a utility model.

I ended up buying a Jimny becuase it ticked all the boxes for a low cost 4x4 that will do 90% of what the old Defender will do offroad, is as comfortable as an old Defender on the road, doesn't leak and has HVAC that works well. Okay there are compromises in load capacity and space but I have an Ifor Williams trailer so not a big issue (back seats are permantely down as well).

So far you are all missing one important and key aspect of potential ownership - namely the after-sales support. Imagine buying one of these vehicles to discover the only repair facility is 150 miles away and fully booked for the next 8 weeks, with key components on back order for 14 weeks and post-Brexit customs clearance. I will be very interested to see how this brand establishes and maintains its servicing and repair network. Just look at the levels of service, overhead recovery and the high charges that established dealer networks require to survive.. Cannot imagine many owners of these vehicles will be wanting to get their hands dirty doing their own lube changes.

You could always buy an old Defender for genuine adventure trips.
They are still unsurpassed for this purpose for various reasons.....if you get a good one.

So to sum up.
The new Defender is the latest rendition of the "Chelsea Tractor", it's unlikely to get it's tyres dirty except to take the daughter to the pony club and the best selling accessory will be a can of spray on mud. As a replacement for the real Defender it's a poor show.
The Grenadier is a brave attempt at a real Defender replacement. It has a chassis, beam axles, a big (hopefully) diesel engine and doesn't waste space on sexy waist lines. It has the makings of a decent rugged tool that will take a lot of stick and come back for more. There are a number of factors, cost , reliability. servicing and parts availability that that must be nailed from the start.
Only time will tell.

Roger

Then again you could opt for the Ibex 4x4!

Roger

Roger Fairclough wrote: So to sum up.
The new Defender is the latest rendition of the "Chelsea Tractor", it's unlikely to get it's tyres dirty except to take the daughter to the pony club and the best selling accessory will be a can of spray on mud. As a replacement for the real Defender it's a poor show.
The Grenadier is a brave attempt at a real Defender replacement. It has a chassis, beam axles, a big (hopefully) diesel engine and doesn't waste space on sexy waist lines. It has the makings of a decent rugged tool that will take a lot of stick and come back for more. There are a number of factors, cost , reliability. servicing and parts availability that that must be nailed from the start.
Only time will tell.

Roger

I've driven a couple of new Defenders. Here are my thoughts on them:

We have a Jimny, a LHD G wagon and a 1997 Hilux. A Range Rover also for long journeys in comfort..

I am subscribed to the Ineos mailing list. I like the involvement of Magna Steyr. If it's a "half price" G Wagon I might buy one - although it's mid next year before they will take a deposit.

Mike

[/quote] I've driven a couple of new Defenders. Here are my thoughts on them:
[/quote]

You've helped us establish that the new defender is brilliant if your 4x4 requirement is to potter about on wet grass :whistle:

Great review of the new Defender, it's pretty much what l expected, and doesn't make me want one, although it's undoubtedly a good vehicle for the intended market.