INEOS GRENDIER - What do you guys think?

lightning wrote: You could always buy an old Defender for genuine adventure trips.
They are still unsurpassed for this purpose for various reasons.....if you get a good one.

You hit the nail right on the head with those last few words - "if you get a good one" To me that sums up the challenge for both Ineos and Land Rover with the production of 4X4 vehicles. What a damning indictment of design and QA that your ownership and driving pleasure are dependent upon the lottery of getting a good one. Reminds me of the days when folk used to moan about buying a Friday or a Monday car, or the one assembled by a team of apprentices or political activists. Having bought a new Land Rover and had it fully maintained by their dealerships - it was evident that after 60 years of production, the Defender was not being produced to a consistently high standard using high quality components. Crawling over any 2014 Defender reveals the whole sorry state of cost-cutting and changing ownership - there's components from old British Leyland days, bits off Fords, TATA sourced bits etc. The after-sales experience was awful - with the frustration of a dealer network who couldn't fix the product without return visits and lots of angst. The Defender ownership concept really appealed to me - as does the Grenadier. Personally, I will wait to see the reality of the new Ineos vehicle, reliability issues and the new dealership network, before I make any commitment to purchase. As for Land Rover, I cannot see me making another purchase - too much angst and not enough smiles. So in the short term it looks like I will stick with my Suzuki - which continues to put a grin on my face and only goes to the dealer for a service once a year (unlike my Land Rover). I welcome Ineos entering the market - hope they can establish themselves as serious players with a reliable and competitive product.

So what do we think will be LR's intended/hoped for market?

Roger

Certainly not me as a farmer. Unfortunately. They could have tried with both of them to make a vehicle that wasn't so much a tarts hand bag as a tweed shooting jacket. But they haven't. And unfortunately much as it sticks in my throat it's looking very likely that Dreadnaught is going to be joined in the fleet by a D-Max because no one is producing a small pickup that can tow and that's a shame.

Roger Fairclough wrote: So what do we think will be LR's intended/hoped for market?

Roger

It's a good question. And if I'm honest, I'm not sure even JLR have the answer.

Observationally, it would appear they have designed the Defender to primarily steal sales from the Discovery 5, Range Rover Sport and Velar. Which to me seems a barmy business model.

The problems with the old Defender seemed to get worse with the later TDCi (post 2007) versions

Cost were cut and dealers seemed to be completely useless at rectifying faults.
The Ford engine used was not great either.

My friend bought a 2014 Defender and eventually rejected it outright, mainly due to dealer incompetence.
If you do own an old Defender, find a local specialist and use them.
l have a feeling that the Grenadier will be somewhat better made than the old Defender, and l would also be willing to bet that all the Land Rover specialists will step up to the task of looking after them.

Jim Ratcliffe has just sealed the fate of the Grenadier, he is going to make it in France.

ln a sense you can't blame them, as they were offered a redundant Mercedes factory in France, saving them a fortune on setup costs.

You can't really blame Land Rover for the state of most of the old Defenders, and the lottery as to whether you get a good one.
Fifteen years of abuse would see most cars becoming scrapyard fodder, so it's a testament to the Defender that so many are still soldiering on.

l see a lot of Defenders and 90% of them don't look to be cherished at all, being an old style vehicle they need to be looked after.

Also thank you "300bhpton" for the information on why Land Rover ended Defender production, l never knew a lot of that and it was really interesting to read.

I think Land Rover made a mistake in not producing a Jimny type replacement, although the new Defender seems to be selling well.

Bob1050 wrote:

lightning wrote: You could always buy an old Defender for genuine adventure trips.
They are still unsurpassed for this purpose for various reasons.....if you get a good one.

You hit the nail right on the head with those last few words - "if you get a good one" To me that sums up the challenge for both Ineos and Land Rover with the production of 4X4 vehicles. What a damning indictment of design and QA that your ownership and driving pleasure are dependent upon the lottery of getting a good one. Reminds me of the days when folk used to moan about buying a Friday or a Monday car, or the one assembled by a team of apprentices or political activists. Having bought a new Land Rover and had it fully maintained by their dealerships - it was evident that after 60 years of production, the Defender was not being produced to a consistently high standard using high quality components. Crawling over any 2014 Defender reveals the whole sorry state of cost-cutting and changing ownership - there's components from old British Leyland days, bits off Fords, TATA sourced bits etc. The after-sales experience was awful - with the frustration of a dealer network who couldn't fix the product without return visits and lots of angst. The Defender ownership concept really appealed to me - as does the Grenadier. Personally, I will wait to see the reality of the new Ineos vehicle, reliability issues and the new dealership network, before I make any commitment to purchase. As for Land Rover, I cannot see me making another purchase - too much angst and not enough smiles. So in the short term it looks like I will stick with my Suzuki - which continues to put a grin on my face and only goes to the dealer for a service once a year (unlike my Land Rover). I welcome Ineos entering the market - hope they can establish themselves as serious players with a reliable and competitive product.

The first Land Rover I can remember is a series 3 Santana When my dad was working in Yemen and it’s how he got around circa 1975. Roll on the years and in my adult hood I have owned and restored Series 2 Series 3 90s 110s I’m now in full recovery I still love them but don’t own one . What I know is that they are heavy, powerful they are have specific roles and in those roles cannot be beaten. I just hope they make them so people in the middle of nowhere can fix em and get them home like the the Jimny.

What's funny is people will buy a 20 year old Defender, that's done 126,000 miles in the hands of eight owners.
One of which was a farmer who regularly towed an Ifor Williams with twenty sheep in it, and another used it to launch their boat into the sea.
One owner never serviced it as they "go on forever" and two owners used Frank from no. 12 to change the oil as he's good with cars.
Frank didn't know about the
centrifugal oil filter so that wasn't changed in 50,000 miles.
The Land Rover was stolen recovered twice and on one occasion was used to ram raid an off license. lt's been washed twice a year and if it's lucky had the mud jet washed off the chassis after a winter driving in snow and salt.
One owner used it as an off road toy and thrashed it round Tixover Quarry every weekend, the monster wheels and lift kit he'd fitted ruined the handling but got taken off when he sold it.
The turbo has had its wastegate messed with to "improve response"
Then it's had a £50 tuning box fitted which made it go like stink but smoke like a tramp steamer, after which it's been remapped by "Megachips"
Nobody ever refilled the swivels with grease, checked the axle oil levels, or changed the gearbox/transfer box oil, although owner no. 5 changed the fuel filter.

And then the new owner will complain that the Defender is "unreliable" and "keeps breaking down" and Land Rover didn't know how to put them together properly

I think it's a red herring with the pick ups, I have a Dmax which I own because it's 4x4 and can tow 3.5 tonnes, I think a lot of people are in the same boat, there's not really an alternative, discovery 4 would be ideal but is just too risky for me. The problem I have with the pick up is having to climb inside to get tools, drop the tail gate and you're another 18 inch a away.
I used to use old Shoguns, Patrols etc but there are issues with insurance using it as a commercial. Test drove new defender, reminded me of a Hyundai Santa Fe I hired in Florida. Felt very fragile for me, my vehicles take a lot of abuse, tow more than not, and sometimes off road.
I would love a four door 4x4 for work and will watch how it goes, I think he will dodge a lot of regs by making them all commercial.

l will certainly look at the Grenadier when it comes out, although l fear it will be close to £50,000 which will be out of reach for me.

I'm not a massive fan of Ratcliffe, and the French decision is hilariously hypocritical, but he has really thought it through. No need for a roof rack, alpine windows are now just scalloped into the roof with a grab handle inside, to lash down loads or climb into your back wheel. The rubbing strip down the side has a groove in it to attach gear to. Rear door is one third, two thirds, had one on the old patrol, really useful, front bumper is big enough to sit on, just like what he's trying to achieve.
When I drove the new defender it had one of the strange tupperware boxes stuck to the rear side window, this rendered the driver's door mirror useless, like towing a caravan, snorkel was fitted but it apparently has a wading depth of 300mm, who would go any deeper than that??? Just all seems nonsense to me, selling a lifestyle to numptys who move out to the country from town.