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BigJimnyMeet (North) 2024 (12 Jan 2024)


BigJimnyMeet 2024

14th July 2024
Parkwood Nr. Leeds

Booking now open - Discount for additional vehicles

Click HERE for details

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19 Feb 2023 16:03 #247673 by Scimike
Can't beat shiny balls, just finished shining one of mine, nice work.

I also have the answer to a question no one has ever asked or wants to know.

Q How much preload does the standard Jimny setup apply to the kingpin bearing before you start to add shims?
The answer is 20 thou or .5mm preload shared between the two. I have too much time on my hands.

That's quite a lot in the world of taper rollers, but then they aren't spinning as such in this application. No help and not wanted, but I've always wanted to know 

 

Yokohama Geolanders, Sony head unit, NAUTILUS Air Horn, DRL conversion, Rear cargo space, Elvis Bobblehead, transfer Guard, Indian hanging Elephant, Koni Heavy track dampers, Custom SS exhaust, Voodoo Doll, Adventure Rack with LED ight bar, vintage ERIBA caravan usually attached (yes it's slow)

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19 Feb 2023 22:56 #247677 by Roger Fairclough
Pre-load is a measure of the pressure applied -in this instance- onto the inner bearing of a taper roller bearing to remove any unwanted clearance. On re-assembly the steering knuckle is fitted with a spring tension gauge pulling on the knuckle arm. The pull, measured in lbs/kgs is noted and that figure is compared to the figure that Suzuki give in their w/shop manual. Except they don't. In the Gen.4 manual they don't mention pre-load or shims at all! Know I know Martin sells a kit of shims but he does not mention the pre-load and the only other source of info. says 2.0 to 4.0 but fails to say whether that is lbs or kgs. As a matter of interest the 70 series Land-Cruiser is 5.5 - 9.9 lbs with the 80 series at 6.6 - 14.3 lbs. This may indicate the Jimny figures are in lbs. but hopefully someone has more information. The SJ used shims that fitted between the bearing cap and the steering knuckle main body With this set-up adding thicker shims reduced the pre-load. The shims Martin supplies fit between the bearing cap and the inner race of the bearing. Adding shims will increase pre-load in this case.

Roger
The following user(s) said Thank You: Scimike

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20 Feb 2023 00:30 #247678 by Scimike
Yes, preload is the pressure applied, thou or mm compression is just another way of measuring it.
Its mainly used for none user adjustable assemblies such as the G3 kingpin, which I believe Suzuki never intended for user adjustment as they never offered shims, I could be wrong.
I was just interested in how much Suzuki squeeze these bearings in the hope of achieving the correct preload, measured as you indicate as moment of force on the complete assembly which is very hard to measure with any accuracy.
 Suzuki compound the problem as they don't tell you if this figure is set with the hub fully assembled, or striped of hub seal, grease and drive shaft, all will change the result. I assume fully assembled, which makes adjustment a real pain.
Its actually quite easy to measure the gap before you "squeeze" the bearings. It's a pity for me that they don't state this figure as I could simple add shims to get the gap correct, then bolt it all up knowing it's set correctly.

Yokohama Geolanders, Sony head unit, NAUTILUS Air Horn, DRL conversion, Rear cargo space, Elvis Bobblehead, transfer Guard, Indian hanging Elephant, Koni Heavy track dampers, Custom SS exhaust, Voodoo Doll, Adventure Rack with LED ight bar, vintage ERIBA caravan usually attached (yes it's slow)

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20 Feb 2023 04:40 #247680 by Lambert
On the gen3 the middle of the tolerance is 3.5kg. I think it's something like plus or minus.75kg but I can't remember. I set the 3.5 without the swivel seal installed and it's always been good for fairly light steering without any wobble.

Temeraire (2018 quasar grey automatic)
One of the last 200ish of the gen3s, probably.
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20 Feb 2023 11:18 #247682 by LesNewell
Suzuki presumably designed for a specific axial preload force and built in enough preload to achieve that force. Modern machining tolerances are pretty close. Say they can achieve an accuracy of +/-0.05mm, which is pretty sloppy by modern standards. That's only 10% of the preload. In that case there is no point adding the costly step of installing shims and checking the preload.

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20 Feb 2023 11:50 #247683 by DrRobin
100% correct, Les, in production you would never assemble something, measure and then take apart and add shims, it would take far too long and needs a few bins of shims of different sizes, that might run out at any time. If it needed factory adjustment, they would make an easier method of doing it.

If they don't do it in production then they are unlikely to do it on a service, they would just say the hub or bearings are out of tolerance and say you need a new one.

Robin

2020 blue SZ5 (one of the last to be registered in the UK)
Ex 2011 Blue Jimny SZ4
Northumberland Jimny Blog

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20 Feb 2023 15:03 #247686 by Roger Fairclough

Suzuki presumably designed for a specific axial preload force and built in enough preload to achieve that force. Modern machining tolerances are pretty close. Say they can achieve an accuracy of +/-0.05mm, which is pretty sloppy by modern standards. That's only 10% of the preload. In that case there is no point adding the costly step of installing shims and checking t"he preload.

"Presumably", "pretty close", "pretty sloppy", "no point". Engineers don't work like that.

Roger


 

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20 Feb 2023 15:14 #247687 by Roger Fairclough

100% correct, Les, in production you would never assemble something, measure and then take apart and add shims, it would take far too long and needs a few bins of shims of different sizes, that might run out at any time. If it needed factory adjustment, they would make an easier method of doing it.

If they don't do it in production then they are unlikely to do it on a service, they would just say the hub or bearings are out of tolerance and say you need a new one.

Robin

There are many instances in car production where tolerances are known  and must be checked to ensure proper working of the unit involved. Yes there are instances where other methods have been adopted, crush tubes on the pinion shaft of a diff. for example, but as Martin supplies shims to alter the pre-load on the king pins then I would suggest, especially as by doing so, "death wobble" is eliminated or at least reduced, then they have a purpose. I will not apologise for being pedantic but I was taught that if a job was worth doing, then do it well.
When I was trialling, we Suzuki boys would laugh at the attitude of the Land/Rover boys because their doctrine was "Oh it will be ok". Famous last words.

Roger
 

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20 Feb 2023 16:15 #247690 by DrRobin
I don't disagree that a shim has a purpose, I have used shims myself in other situations, it's just a not production method anyone employs anymore for the reasons set out above.

Mind if you have a Ducati Desmo [Desmodromic Valves, a cam and lever to open the valve and another to close it) motorbike with Bevel head you will know all about shims, they used them in production to set valve clearances among other uses as it was the only way it could work. The bevel heads are amazingly difficult to set up correctly as a result.

Robin

2020 blue SZ5 (one of the last to be registered in the UK)
Ex 2011 Blue Jimny SZ4
Northumberland Jimny Blog

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20 Feb 2023 19:18 #247693 by Roger Fairclough
Try to assemble a differential without shims and preloads.

This kind of discussion is pointless and as no one else seems to be interested in joining in I will bow out and let those who wanted the information store it for future use.

Roger

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20 Feb 2023 20:20 #247694 by Lambert
Would not something like an axle be a subassembly built on a separate line if not by a separate manufacturer. It would have to meet tolerance but being a subassembly would have less impact on final installation time so could be set correctly. I say that because at full chat with everything clean and to hand I can assemble a knuckle onto an axle tube in about 25 minutes, obviously in a jig in a factory doing it hundreds of times a week I would get faster still but that's never going to be quite quickly enough for a production line for cars. Dunno, it just seems logical that even with production machining there could be room for adjusting the tolerance to spec at assembly?

Temeraire (2018 quasar grey automatic)
One of the last 200ish of the gen3s, probably.
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20 Feb 2023 20:28 #247695 by yakuza
Changed the parking light "bulb" that was blinking cause it is a cheap chinese ebay LED.
But before that i was in a garden lawn where a Vivaro Electric van had sunk into the ground in the thaw and it has rained for days now.
Wife knows I love a bit of rescue so she tipped them of me when she heard they got stuck.

4-low, locked rear diff, cheap snatch strap and several yankings later I had to lower tire pressure in the rear wheels to 0.5 bar and then I got it out.
Loved it even in the pouring rain :)

Norway 2005 Jimny M16A VVT, 235 BFG MT, 2" Trailmaster, ARB rear lck, 17%/87% high/low gears.

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