Re:Re:Re:Jimny pulling to right

Roger
Thanks I just googled suspention bushes and from images i think now I know what you talk about. Sorry english is not my mother tongue so sometimes I misunderstood.

Just to let you know they have fitted what I call "caster correction bushes" about a month after the 50mm lift. Radius arms was removed and new bushes was pressed in and refitted. So I think in that case, yes the suspension bushes would have been in position where they were relieved of any possible "binding" / "unrelieved stress".

Sorry i forgot to mention the caster correction bushes that was added month after lift kit install and about another month before the tyres were upgraded.

Edit
Yes I also watched the install and then the wheels was on ground when radius arms was installed, so full load was on wheels and suspention was settled into position when bolts was finally fastened and torqued.



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Whilst I would hope that a professional workshop would be able to install correction bushes in the proper orientation is is possible not to and that would cause one front wheel to be slightly further forward or backwards than the other causing the issue. Hence suggesting measuring both sides to confirm parallel.

Glad to be of help.

When a manufacturer makes something they will work to a set of drawings and specifications and within these will be tolerances. These determine how loose or tight item A is to Item B. In the steering and suspension system a number of these specs are referred to in degrees and as long as your motor is within these specs, all will be well. Caster angle is fairly loose with a nominal figure around 4 degrees with an error of 1 degree plus or minus. ie 3 degrees to 5 degrees and that means that if the correction bushes are not precisely fitted then the allowable left/right usually around 30 seconds, is easily exceeded and normal steering response is compromised, so it could steer left or right.

To check to see if your suspension/steering is within specs. you need a full check by a company that knows what it is doing.

Roger

Thanks Lambert and Roger.

The issue started the day that the springs and shocks were fitted and not when the caster correction bushes was fitted (fitted only a month after springs/shocks).

After the lift kit was fitted, the steering wheel was off centre but vehicle had no pull to the side. I asked them then a week later after springs/shocks was fitted to correct the steering as per Martins video.

The moment that they correct the steering wheel the car pulled right. I was told I need to fit adjustable panhard rod and we decided while I wait for panhard rod the steering wheel will be set back to being off centre and car had no induced pull and it was tracking perfect straight.

The fitment of the caster correction also did not introduce any pull albeit the steering wheel was off centre still in exact same place. We did not try to even put steering wheel back to centre as they said it will be corrected later when the adjustable panhard rod will be added to fix the steering wheel issue (centered with no pull).

Then I fitted the tyres. Same thing, all perfect and no funnies car was driving perfect straight albeit the steering wheel still in same off centre position. Again they did not try to set steering wheel back to centre as "it will be corrected once I received the adjustable panhard bar"

Only now once I received the adjustable panhard bar they fitted it and it was the first time they tried to set steering wheel back to centre, and pull to right was back as just after the fitment of springs/shocks when first time they tried to bring back steering wheel to centre.

So at least now the front wheels sit nicely centred, but that was all what the adjustable panhard bar seemed to have corrected. (Yes I am pedantic and that bothered me to see front wheels not being perfectly centered to body.) Maybe we just should not have measured it as from that day it seemed to be standing out more for me






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Ok so basic principles. The steering wheel position at straight ahead is determined mechanically by the drag link, this is the bar that connects the pitman arm on the bottom of the steering box to the steering knuckle on the opposite side of the car. It doesn't affect the way the car drives only the relative position of the steering wheel to the front road wheels.

Panhard bars are there to locate the axles centrally under the car with the suspension at rest.

The track bar at the back of the front axle connects the 2 steering knuckles and adjusts the toe angle of the wheels.

The radius arms are the link from the axles to the chassis and keep the axles parallel.

All these bars and links work by forming virtual triangles against the plane of the chassis and or axles. By fitting longer springs the height element of these triangles is altered resulting in relative movement between the positions of the axles and the chassis or steering components, the exception of course is the track bar as it is effectively part of the axle assembly.

So when the lift was installed other than the height element the only other meaningful alterations were to the castor angle and the centering of the axles. If the castor angle is assumed to have changed equally on both sides of the axle then the centering of the axles is not going to affect the vehicle pulling to either side. If however the relative position of the 2 radius arms is slightly different from side to side, because the axle cannot twist radially in its own length it will cause the axle to no longer be parallel which will cause the car to pull.

On the gen3 the factory front springs are handed to correct for the driver and the crown of the road I don't know if the gen4 is the same but in certain cases putting equal length springs in can result in the car leaning and pulling because the wheelbase is different from side to side.

It doesn't take much of a discrepancy to cause a problem.

I agree with Lambert (blimey) with paragraph 1 through 5.

L on I has said that the caster correction bushes did not create the pulling to the right. The pull to the right was created when they "corrected" the position of the steering wheel. By the way, having the wheel in the central position when steering straight is not being pedantic!

To correct the position of the wheel relative to the car moving forward is normally achieved by the use of the drag link. This link is fitted with a threaded section to either shorten or lengthen it to set the steering wheel in the correct position. The other way to do it is to remove the wheel and turn it to a new upright position. This may or may not be physically possible depending on the splines that locate the wheel to the shaft. Doing it this way, even if possible can put the trip mechanism that controls the indicator cancel switch out of sync.

I know mechanics, I have worked with them and I know how sloppy they can be. Correct the steering, go for a drive, hit a kerb, bend something, steering out. It's a possibility.

Lambert suggested you measure between axle centres front to back. I suggest you do it. Any discrepancy could be the answer.

I believe that a straight talking discussion with the manager at the center that did the work is in order as they must put their hand up to this. They fitted everything and they have left you with problem steering.

That is not good enough.

Roger

Thank you both Roger and Lambert. I must admit I am learning a LOT last 3 days from you. Again thank you for your detailed explanations.

Good news is the adjustable panhard bar for the back was delivered this afternoon but there is no way to get it installed tommorow, so this will only happen next week.

So I will only be able to give further update early next week.

I will still read up more the weekend to get myself a little more educated, but I have to admit it is great feeling when the pieces of the puzzle start falling into place.

Have a great weekend guys.




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Just to recap. This is right hand drive gen4. South Africa with a 50mm lift.

The following has been done.
1) 50mm lift. Caster correction bushes
2) 215/75/R15 all terrains.
3) adjustable front panhard bar added and adjusted. Front wheels perfectly centered to chassis.
4) rear panhard bar added and adjusted. Rear wheels perfectly centered to chassis.
5) Wheel alignment done. 3 different places confirm alingment true although steering wheel is sitting off centre..

Current steering wheel position. Tracking 100% straight after lift. Very happy with tracking and handling albeit steering wheel a bit skewed.

01 pic of on the road driving




02 pic of steering in garage before adjustments. lets call this "Default steering off position A"



03 04 loosened locknuts both sides.





Then I turn centre steering rack bar one full revolution.


05 The steering wheel moved left and actually a few degrees now off to other side. Car have not moved at all. This is direct after steering bar adjustment.



06 after adjustment i pull away. (Hands off steering wheel.) Please see how steering automaticaal move to "Default steering off position A" the moment wheels start to rotate.



07 here you can see effect while driving. I have to hold steering wheel and slightly pull steering wheel to left (as car is pulling right) to keep vehicle going straight. The moment I loosen grip you see how it immediately goes right and I have to drastically correct, pulling steering back left.



08 I then stopped. Turn the steering rod 2 revolutions in other direction. I expect car now to pull left. Here you can see steering wheel clearly going back to other side. Remember car has not moved at all. This is all due to adjustment on steering rod.



09 start vehicle and take off after adjustment in step 08 (hands not touching the steering wheel). here again see how steering wheel auto correct to position as in first 2 photos (Default steering off position A) the moment wheels start turning. Vehicle then pull left.



10 now moved steering rod back one revolution to get back vehicle where it track straight as per original position of steering wheel sitting sightly down to right. Here you can see car all back to track perfect straigt but steering slightly off centre in (Default steering off position A).



11 Also test was done with steering damper off.
Exactly same results.




So what is causing the steering to whichever way the steering rod is adjusted, the steering wheel do move into new position, but at the exact moment the wheels start to rotate, the steering wheel go back to "resting" original position the moment wheels start to role. (Not touching steering wheel at all on pull away.) And then induce a pull left or right how much ever the steering rod was adjust off its default "straight" position.


It is as if something is automatically moving steering wheel back to (Default steering off position A) the moment wheels start rotating.


This really confirm that the steering rod adjustment do move the steering wheel to new position as per Martins instructional video, but in my case the steering wheel does NOT stay in new position, and move back to original "resting" position) before any adjustments were made), the moment the wheels start to rotate and then send the adjustment I have made rather to the wheels, instead of keeping steering wheel in that position.

This is driving me and the fitment shops nuts.

Obviously Jimnies that is lifted seem to be limited and not many that need adjustments in South Africa, so we all trying to understand what is happening here.

Weird. Has anyone taken the steering wheel off to the best of your knowledge? Also I don't know is the power steering hydraulic like the gen3 or some kind of electronic system? The thing is that the castor angle should bring the wheels into the straight ahead so whatever is inducing the pull is working against the natural tendency of the car to go straight.

One test you can do. Lift the car and support both axles in the air but with the weight on the suspension. Set the steering wheel to the rest position and very carefully start the car and engage 4x4 drive so that all 4 wheels rotating. Then move the steering wheel to the level position and release it. See if it returns to the rest position. Doing this will eliminate the effect of the castor angle of the axle and allow you to determine if the steering is being affected by something other than the alignment of the axle, such as the power steering box trying to maintain a false centre position.

Lambert wrote: One test you can do. Lift the car and support both axles in the air but with the weight on the suspension. Set the steering wheel to the rest position and very carefully start the car and engage 4x4 drive so that all 4 wheels rotating. Then move the steering wheel to the level position and release it. See if it returns to the rest position. Doing this will eliminate the effect of the castor angle of the axle and allow you to determine if the steering is being affected by something other than the alignment of the axle, such as the power steering box trying to maintain a false centre position.

Make sense , i will take to the suspension place the have a lift and a equipment that will work perfectly to do such a test.

I like your description. "False centre position" alla "rest position". That is exactly what it is.

Thank you for taking the time to work through my lengthy post, but that was only way to explain the issue I have with the "False centre position".


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Lambert wrote: Weird. Has anyone taken the steering wheel off to the best of your knowledge? Also I don't know is the power steering hydraulic like the gen3 or some kind of electronic system? The thing is that the castor angle should bring the wheels into the straight ahead so whatever is inducing the pull is working against the natural tendency of the car to go straight.

No the steering itself has never been touched ever. Every time any work was done I was allowed to watch in the workshop.

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