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Engine rattle on load / acceleration -Not yet solved

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09 Aug 2017 07:10 - 12 Oct 2017 16:17 #183270 by yakuza
yakuza created the topic: Engine rattle on load / acceleration -Not yet solved
Sounds a bit like the sound on older cars when vacuum advance on the ignition was wack. Like the early ignition makes the valves rattle. Going up hill or acceleration makes the noise come, mostly on low revs. Edit: not so anymore.
The engine is a Liana 2008 VVT. Car is 2005 VVT. Has been running great since easter, haven't been noticing the sound before last two weeks. No fault codes.
Any suggestions? Sensors? Spark plugs? Vvt thingy?

Edit:possible solution below:
2008 Liana engine got 11.1:1 compression rate while the 2005 Jimny got 9.75:1 compression rate. Using the 2005 ECU with "wrong" compression rate will have ignition timing a bit off making the valves rattle. Changing to higher octane petrol lessens the intensity of the sound and it does not come so often.. More permament solution could be remapping the ECU, changing ECU to Liana or "other".. For the time being I am filling 98 octane, and will look into using octane booster additive possibly.

Edit 2: now experiencing diminishing power as well. almost as little power now that i had with the m13a engine

Sent fra min E5823 via Tapatalk

2005 Jimny MT M16A VVT, 2" Trailmaster, 235/75-15 MT
1987 SJ413 lwb, G16BB, 4" trailmaster, 2xARB, 4.16:1 transfer, 325/75-15 MT -project in pieces..
Last Edit: 12 Oct 2017 16:17 by yakuza. Reason: solution added

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14 Aug 2017 22:33 #183405 by yakuza
yakuza replied the topic: Re:Engine rattle on load / acceleration
Been studying the noise more, and now it is mostly around 3000rpm and above 5000. Only when engine is loaded, only when warm. Seen and heard videos of cam drive chain rattle, and it is not like that. Local garage couldn't help me, has not had any such problems with suzuki engines, but some on Honda..

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2005 Jimny MT M16A VVT, 2" Trailmaster, 235/75-15 MT
1987 SJ413 lwb, G16BB, 4" trailmaster, 2xARB, 4.16:1 transfer, 325/75-15 MT -project in pieces..

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15 Aug 2017 10:40 #183416 by facade
facade replied the topic: Re:Engine rattle on load / acceleration
Check the heatshield on the catalyst beneath your feet. When this first starts to come loose you get a tinkling noise, when it detaches on one side it sounds like you are dragging a load of scrap iron chains from the back. Only does it on load too..

If it suddenly breaks, go back to the last thing that you did before it broke and start looking there :)

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15 Aug 2017 11:41 #183417 by yakuza
yakuza replied the topic: Re:Engine rattle on load / acceleration

facade wrote: Check the heatshield on the catalyst beneath your feet. When this first starts to come loose you get a tinkling noise, when it detaches on one side it sounds like you are dragging a load of scrap iron chains from the back. Only does it on load too..


will of course check this to rule it out, but have had similar loose heat shields before and this is not that kind of sound. more like some solid pieces of metal meeting up to give me trouble..
There is an extra spring on my catalyst as well to keep it silent. could have come loose, but nowhere near the same sound last time it did.
No sound when revving standing still either.
But load and warm condition could point towards exhaust as you say..

Hoping to get time to check both underside and beneath valve cover today..

2005 Jimny MT M16A VVT, 2" Trailmaster, 235/75-15 MT
1987 SJ413 lwb, G16BB, 4" trailmaster, 2xARB, 4.16:1 transfer, 325/75-15 MT -project in pieces..

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17 Aug 2017 13:09 - 17 Aug 2017 13:15 #183462 by yakuza
yakuza replied the topic: Re:Engine rattle on load / acceleration
Checked heat shield. Still welded to the pipe in both ends and with the spring around it. No such sounds there. did not get to looking under valve cover yesterday as i was doing other stuff to the car. Did another listening run and still the same: No sounds when cold, but on load when warm. Google and other experts has revealed no real solution or alternative.

Looks like the VVT sprocket/wheel/actuator is a hydraulic device.(?)
Does anyone know how this item works?
Is there a solenoid valve or something i can check the function of?
Still got my M13 engine i can swap parts from.

2005 Jimny MT M16A VVT, 2" Trailmaster, 235/75-15 MT
1987 SJ413 lwb, G16BB, 4" trailmaster, 2xARB, 4.16:1 transfer, 325/75-15 MT -project in pieces..
Last Edit: 17 Aug 2017 13:15 by yakuza.

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17 Aug 2017 15:43 #183465 by facade
facade replied the topic: Re:Engine rattle on load / acceleration
The vvt is controlled by the solenoid valve located horizontally at the top front of the engine, below the water elbow pipe.
There are 2 oilways in the sprocket end of the inlet cam, fed from this valve.
The cam sprocket is loose and attached to a 3 chambered cylinder , and there is a 3 spoked impeller on the end of the cam that is inside this cylinder.
With no oil pressure the sprocket rotates until the impeller blades contact the chamber walls, and the cam then rotates retarded so the engine starts.
When there is oil pressure, the ecu requests a specific timing advance or retard, and moves the solenoid valve one way or the other, to allow more oil to get between the impeller blade and the chamber wall on one side, forcing the cam to move relative to the sprocket.
The solenoid is operated at a high frequency, and the impeller blades end up locked solid with oil on each side of the chamber (or the cam would shoot forwards as the lobe goes over the tappet)


This is the general idea, this is actually a Delphi system, but I believe the jimny is the same





I can't see that rattling tbh, unless there is a massive oil leak at the front of the cam, and I'm fairly sure the erratic cam timing would put the EML on.

Renault use a dreadful thing called a dephaser pulley, full of springs, that does a similar job, except it breaks straight away, and rattles like a diesel engine.

If it suddenly breaks, go back to the last thing that you did before it broke and start looking there :)
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17 Aug 2017 17:55 #183469 by Riccy
Riccy replied the topic: Re:Engine rattle on load / acceleration
I would be having a look at the gearbox & t-box/props maybe. I think you still have the standard R72 gearbox in (known problem child)?

I had problems with the gearbox making odd noises in certain gears, which was bearings on one of the shafts. It was obvious it was the gearbox as it was certain gears, but strangely the noise came from further forward in the cabin than i expected it to.

If the noise is on-load after warming up then the transfer box or props are more likely perhaps? What does pressing the clutch pedal do when its making the noise?

2007 with M16 VVT, R7me gearbox,
235/75r15 Maxxis M/T, 3.9 diffs & rocklobster,
5.5" total lift, Zookbob HD steering shock,
ARB lockers, Custom front bumper/guard & rack,
Arches, CB, Light bar, rocksliders, diffs/shocks/t-box/fuel guards,
Snorkel + K&N panel, Tow points & 13500lb Winchmax, Buzzweld...
The following user(s) said Thank You: yakuza

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17 Aug 2017 21:04 #183472 by yakuza
yakuza replied the topic: Re:RE: Re:Engine rattle on load / acceleration

facade wrote: The vvt is controlled by the solenoid valve located horizontally at the top front of the engine, below the water elbow pipe.
There are 2 oilways in the sprocket end of the inlet cam, fed from this valve.
The cam sprocket is loose and attached to a 3 chambered cylinder , and there is a 3 spoked impeller on the end of the cam that is inside this cylinder.
With no oil pressure the sprocket rotates until the impeller blades contact the chamber walls, and the cam then rotates retarded so the engine starts.
When there is oil pressure, the ecu requests a specific timing advance or retard, and moves the solenoid valve one way or the other, to allow more oil to get between the impeller blade and the chamber wall on one side, forcing the cam to move relative to the sprocket.
The solenoid is operated at a high frequency, and the impeller blades end up locked solid with oil on each side of the chamber (or the cam would shoot forwards as the lobe goes over the tappet)


This is the general idea, this is actually a Delphi system, but I believe the jimny is the same





I can't see that rattling tbh, unless there is a massive oil leak at the front of the cam, and I'm fairly sure the erratic cam timing would put the EML on.

Renault use a dreadful thing called a dephaser pulley, full of springs, that does a similar job, except it breaks straight away, and rattles like a diesel engine.

Thanks Facade! Great explanation. Eill flip over cam position sensor from other engine just to try something. Taking the car to work tomorrow to get second opinions on the noise.


Sent fra min E5823 via Tapatalk

2005 Jimny MT M16A VVT, 2" Trailmaster, 235/75-15 MT
1987 SJ413 lwb, G16BB, 4" trailmaster, 2xARB, 4.16:1 transfer, 325/75-15 MT -project in pieces..

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17 Aug 2017 21:24 #183475 by yakuza
yakuza replied the topic: Re:RE: Re:Engine rattle on load / acceleration

Riccy wrote: I would be having a look at the gearbox & t-box/props maybe. I think you still have the standard R72 gearbox in (known problem child)?

I had problems with the gearbox making odd noises in certain gears, which was bearings on one of the shafts. It was obvious it was the gearbox as it was certain gears, but strangely the noise came from further forward in the cabin than i expected it to.

If the noise is on-load after warming up then the transfer box or props are more likely perhaps? What does pressing the clutch pedal do when its making the noise?

Thanks riccy.
Yes I got that gearbox. It is leaking in the rear and got a slight whining noise already so I know.. Needs new prop shaft seal. But i do not think this noise is from gears or bearings. The chain inside transfer box though could rattle like this i guess.
I have actually greased my prop shafts. Pressed grease in until they expanded. No play in the joints 3000km ago.

Clutch springs broken some said. Loose flywheel? I did use loctite on the bolts... When pressing clutch, load goes, no sound. Nothing when revving.
Releasing throttle pedal, and stepping hard down makes alot of rattle but just for 2 seconds.
Hoping second opinions from colleagues tomorrow will help as well.

Sent fra min E5823 via Tapatalk

2005 Jimny MT M16A VVT, 2" Trailmaster, 235/75-15 MT
1987 SJ413 lwb, G16BB, 4" trailmaster, 2xARB, 4.16:1 transfer, 325/75-15 MT -project in pieces..

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18 Aug 2017 15:56 #183485 by yakuza
yakuza replied the topic: Re:Engine rattle on load / acceleration
Maybe it is the shifter seals?
And definitely the transfer fwd seal..

Sent fra min E5823 via Tapatalk

2005 Jimny MT M16A VVT, 2" Trailmaster, 235/75-15 MT
1987 SJ413 lwb, G16BB, 4" trailmaster, 2xARB, 4.16:1 transfer, 325/75-15 MT -project in pieces..

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18 Aug 2017 16:43 #183486 by yakuza
yakuza replied the topic: Re:Engine rattle on load / acceleration
Oil came out of gearbox and transfer level plugs, so oil inside is ok despite the leaks..

Sent fra min E5823 via Tapatalk

2005 Jimny MT M16A VVT, 2" Trailmaster, 235/75-15 MT
1987 SJ413 lwb, G16BB, 4" trailmaster, 2xARB, 4.16:1 transfer, 325/75-15 MT -project in pieces..

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18 Aug 2017 18:10 #183487 by yakuza
yakuza replied the topic: Re:Engine rattle on load / acceleration
Ringing/rattling sound appeard today from exhaust side of engine. Listening thru a wooden stick and the manifold catalytic lump is the only place on the engine I can hear it thru the stick. So have to decide whether to ignore it for now, or dismantle and cut it open..

Sent fra min E5823 via Tapatalk

2005 Jimny MT M16A VVT, 2" Trailmaster, 235/75-15 MT
1987 SJ413 lwb, G16BB, 4" trailmaster, 2xARB, 4.16:1 transfer, 325/75-15 MT -project in pieces..

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