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BigJimnyMeet (North) 2024 (12 Jan 2024)


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Re:Ball or taper?.

  • Lambert
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05 Sep 2020 09:27 #227755 by Lambert
Replied by Lambert on topic Ball or taper?.
As mentioned above sj bearings are compatible with Jimny. I would however caution that taper bearings aren't the panacea that you want them to be. I refer you to the land rover defender which used a much bigger and heavier taper system than Suzuki for many years and they, even in standard road spec, ate wheel bearings at much the same rate as a Jimny eats kingpin bearings. This was until land rover alternated to roller bearings. Diehards insisted on reverting to taper as they believed that the taper was adjustable for wear. But retightening a worn taper is like putting a sticking plaster on a gunshot wound, the bearings are failed and should be replaced. That people are putting Jimny wheel bearings so far outside their design parameters is not a problem so long as it comes with the acceptance of requiring a much more frequent and intensive service schedule. Or put the other way, if you don't want to be maintaining your Jimny one week in four leave it relatively standard and live with the fact it can only go 94% of the places you point it instead of 97% of them.

Temeraire (2018 quasar grey automatic)
One of the last 200ish of the gen3s, probably.
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05 Sep 2020 09:56 #227756 by Roger Fairclough
Replied by Roger Fairclough on topic Ball or taper?.
My neighbor was the Chairman of the Midland Rover Owners Club and he told me that Defender drivers and previous series motors all had the same philosophy about maintenance "oh, it will do" so this meant that strict methods , advocated by the factory, of setting pre-loads were bypassed with the inevitable result that things failed.
Taper roller bearings need a pre-load and if you follow correct procedure you will make sure that the outer race is correctly seated followed by eliminating striction and then setting the pre-load. Do it properly and there is no further need for maintenance.
But, again, we are getting of the point of this string. In an hour or so I will meet up with Sean - he of the bearing company - and I will ask him if he knows of any way to convert from ball to taper roller.In my opinion, 2 independent TR bearings wont work as they will need a central shoulder for the outer race to butt up to, which is why I asked about fitting the SJ hub unit. Also, in my opinion, a unit comprising 2 TR's wont fit in the space allowed, hence my request for the measurements of the standard bearing.

Roger
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05 Sep 2020 11:07 #227760 by Lambert
Replied by Lambert on topic Ball or taper?.
I am, amongst other things, a qualified mechanical engineer. I know how to follow a manufacturer service spec especially for things like bearings, my 90 would need a pair of front wheel bearings typically every 2nd year, much like a set of kingpin bearings on a Jimny. As I don't like doing anything more often than necessary, I wherever possible use genuine parts, they last longer and work properly. In the past 15 years of Jimny ownership over 4 vehicles and in excess of 200000 miles covered I have replaced exactly 0 wheel bearings. Jimny and sj bearings are interchangeable but there's no particular need as both types are equally durable in the same applied circumstances, what kills one is going to kill the other.

Temeraire (2018 quasar grey automatic)
One of the last 200ish of the gen3s, probably.
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  • CC Baxter
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05 Sep 2020 11:26 #227761 by CC Baxter
Replied by CC Baxter on topic Ball or taper?.
"As I don't like doing anything more often than necessary"
I couldn't agree more. Remedial over routine, love it. Chris
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05 Sep 2020 13:42 - 05 Sep 2020 13:43 #227766 by Lambert
Replied by Lambert on topic Ball or taper?.
Not at all. When it's due, do it. Saves down time from neglect. Look after the tools that help you earn the money.

Temeraire (2018 quasar grey automatic)
One of the last 200ish of the gen3s, probably.
ADOS Attention Deficit Ooooh Shiny!
Last edit: 05 Sep 2020 13:43 by Lambert.
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05 Sep 2020 16:22 #227775 by Roger Fairclough
Replied by Roger Fairclough on topic Ball or taper?.
Lambert.

The Suzuki SJ series uses two taper roller bearing per hub whilst the Jimny uses a single unit comprising 2 sets of balls. As you are an engineer you will appreciate that these are entirely different designs and require entirely different housings to be fitted to.How then do you class them as interchangeable?
Secondly, again as an engineer, you appear to have difficulty in accepting that a taper roller bearing has much greater load bearing capacity than a ball race of equal size.
Roger
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05 Sep 2020 17:06 #227778 by mlines
Replied by mlines on topic Re:Ball or taper?.
A number of companies sell cheap wheel bearing kits for the Jimny which are taper bearing based. They are almost impossible to fit, the better versions have a nylon holder to help with assembly but the dual race bearings are much better and easier to fit.. my front wheel bearing seen to last a long time. It's the rears that really take a battering

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Martin

2003 M13 early KAP build.
3" Trailmaster lift with 1.5 Spacers on front
Customised winch bumper and roll cage
235/85R16 Maxxis Bighorns on 16" Rims, 4:1 Rocklobster, Rear ARB locker and on-board air
Corrected arms all-round, rear disks, Recaro seats and harnesses
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05 Sep 2020 18:02 #227781 by Roger Fairclough
Replied by Roger Fairclough on topic Re:Ball or taper?.
At the beginning of this string I made a statement that the bearing fitted in the Jimny was inferior to the bearings fitted in the SJ series. This was confirmed today by a friend who runs his own bearing factor company. When I mentioned the Jimny bearing his comment was "cheap and cheerful."A taper roller is superior to a ball race, end of. Now if you want to challenge that fact , bring it on, I can take it, on the chin if necessary! but please stop avoiding the issue, which, for those who have forgotten it, revolves around two questions:-
1) Will the SJ hub unit fit the Jimny axle.
2)What are the dimensions of the Jimny bearing.
Roger
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05 Sep 2020 18:20 #227783 by RainerK
Replied by RainerK on topic Re:Ball or taper?.
If I remember correctly from my training, the difference is that taper bearings have a contact line and ball bearings have a contact point. Than makes taper bearings able to bear higher punctual loads. And there are different qualities available for the same bearing dimension.

What I also remember is that we designed bearing for 20,000 hours and above for industrial equipment and we designed components of cars for mere 1,200 hours of design life span.

A wheel bearing has to work in radial direction and to a lower extend in axial direction and this an area were ball bearings are ok and double ball bearings are better than ok as are taper bearings.

So with this I could imagine, that both bearings are fine and it depends more on the quality of the bearing used than on the (suitable) type used and it depends on the overall design to protect a bearing from a negative environment. For ball bearings there are bearings that are protected even if overall design is not perfect.
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05 Sep 2020 18:29 #227784 by Roger Fairclough
Replied by Roger Fairclough on topic Re:Ball or taper?.
Martin.
I used to chew up the ball bearing on my SJ and it was nothing to do with water ingress. I tried using bearings that were 1RS and I converted the shaft and housing to take a separate outer twin lipped oil seal. This helped as the bearing was now lubricated with diff oil but the main problem was that I was using a mud plugga tyre 215/15 instead of 195/80-15. Add on wheels with an extra 25mm offset and you see the problem. I toyed with the idea of using a roller race as this would dramatically improve the roller to race contact but the problem was I couldn't find a bearing to fit plus my idea of fitting a disc brake was already dubious due to the inevitable movement of the standard bearing as it moves in and out as you corner. A friend who trialled his SJ with me fitted a disc brake and found that shaft movement kept pushing his brake pistons back and his brake pedal needed pumping before he needed to stop. Stopping in a hurry wasn't a pleasant experience. Anyway, I will be looking into the possibility of using a roller race in the back as this should dramatically increase the life of the bearing but you would, in my opinion, still need to retain the drum brake.
Roger
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  • Lambert
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05 Sep 2020 18:33 #227785 by Lambert
Replied by Lambert on topic Re:Ball or taper?.
Ok so despite repeated assertions from various members of this forum based on the evidence gathered over hundreds of thousands of miles on numerous vehicles of different ages that the manufacturer bearings are extremely durable and also that there are various taper type bearings available on the market you seem unwilling to accept the advice offered.

I have no option but to lock this thread lest it escalate into something more inflammatory.

Temeraire (2018 quasar grey automatic)
One of the last 200ish of the gen3s, probably.
ADOS Attention Deficit Ooooh Shiny!
The following user(s) said Thank You: mlines
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