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BigJimny Meet 2019 (17 May 2019)

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Re:Re:Jimny Front Brakes Seizing

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20 Aug 2019 19:29 #212416 by Witzend
Thanks, Jimx5. This is something I'll have to look at. There have been no adjustments made, but it's possible the locknut has come off. I've been concentrating on things that might cause an intermittent problem, because if I leave the car standing for an hour or so after it's seized, it will have released and I can drive it and the brakes work normally. The first journey of the day, it will seize 99% of the time within 10mins if I drive though town, but if I park up then do the return journey, it might not seize at all. Do you think the clearance could result in this, or would it happen all of the time?

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20 Aug 2019 19:42 #212419 by Witzend
Thanks, kirkynut. I thought the same regarding the flexihoses - they're a cheap replacement and it won't do any harm changing them even if it's not the cause, but both myself and my local garage thought it was unlikely that they would both suddenly start doing it at the same time, and also both stop doing it if and when it clears itself. Also, I released the pressure on the ABS pump and both callipers instantly released, so we thought that meant the callipers were OK and the flexipipes too. We thought that if the flexipipes were holding pressure, they would still hold it if we released it further back in the system. We therefore changed the ABS pump first, but it didn't cure it.

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21 Aug 2019 04:08 #212432 by Lambert
Could it be a vacuum related issue affecting the booster. Sounds like it could be a leak if it is primarily happening from cold and then disappearing once things have a chance to warm up and settle. I'm just thinking that the release of hydraulic pressure and the freeing of the system might be coincidental with a failed vacuum component rectifying itself. Or I'm clutching at straws.

Dreadnaught (black 2011)

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21 Aug 2019 07:55 #212437 by RainerK
I was thinking the same direction.

Maybe try to unplug the booster vacuum hose and plug the open end of the hose.

ATTENTION: The break will be much much harder to press. So do this just to find out, if you still have the seizing issue. If the seizing stopps, the I would suspect a defect booster.

Remove the plug from the vacuum hose and attach the vacuum hose again to the booster!!!!

Attention again, the break will be much much harder to press without the booster!!! And it could be that you cannot get a decent deceleartion!

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21 Aug 2019 08:37 #212439 by CC Baxter
Sorry I missed your follow up question. The Swift had exactly the problem you describe. I suspect the prmary/secondary - front/rear labeling just make the system sound more complicated than it is. No matter how fancy the manufacturer makes it sound the front brakes do the stopping, the rears need to be prevented from locking.
Chris

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21 Aug 2019 13:36 #212447 by Witzend
RainerK & Lambert. I hope we're talking about the same thing - I took the vacuum hose off the servo and took it out after reading an old post. It didn't seize at first, but I didn't dare take it into town as the braking was so impaired. I took it out later that night, did the normal run through town with the vacuum hose disconnected and it seized as bad as ever. There was a loud squeal when I removed the hose, so there was a good vacuum.

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21 Aug 2019 14:19 #212449 by Witzend
CCBaxter - As you've had the same problem then it looks like changing the master cylinder has definite potential, although I would have expected the rear brakes to either seize/get hot/wear prematurely as well. I'd already ordered a replacement pressure differential valve/splitter/compensator (I've seen it described as all 3) because when I took it to my local garage and it had seized, we talked it over for a while, then gave this valve a good whack and the brakes had released, HOWEVER - it had been stood a while so could have released itself, and the next time it seized I whacked it and it didn't release. I've not driven it since whilst awaiting delivery as not only am I limited to 40-50mph, but it also shakes violently at this speed when the brakes are seizing (OK rest of time). It's due tomorrow, but if it looks like it's just a connector with no valves inside, I can't see the point in fitting it and will look at changing the master cylinder next. Here is the webpage with the braking diagram - Item 3 is what I've got ordered.
suzuki.7zap.com/en/jimny/51483-2003/128179-0-0/1460-0-0-0/

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21 Aug 2019 14:46 #212450 by CC Baxter
Witzend, item 3 looks like what used to be called a brake bias valve (front to rear) if this is the case there is every chance a new one will fix the problem. I certainly hope so. As the master is only a two pipe ( flow & return) front/rear balance is likely to be handled by said valve. Failing that, go back to the master cylinder scenario.
Chris

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23 Aug 2019 10:02 #212573 by Witzend
All - thebias valve arrived yesterday and new pads (old ones worn down after <2,000miles). I set off for the garage to fit it this morning with all four brakes running free. After RainerK's question, I managed to get onto the dual carriageway without using footbrake or handbrake. After about 5miles, the brakes started seizing by themselves and within a mile I was down to 40mph flat out and slowing. Got to garage, still without having applied any brake (foot or hand), got it on ramp and both front were hot and seized. Rear had also started to get warm. Following Jimx5's suggestion, we also checked for clearance/free-play/lock nut between the pedal and master cylinder and it is fine.
We took off n/s calliper and they couldn't push it back. Cracked nut on ABS pump(which has always released the pressure previously) but it didn't release enough to push it back (although calliper was off so pipe could have been twisted) - however, the o/s released. Cracked nut on n/s calliper and it completely freed off and could easily be pushed back.
As I'd applied no brake pressure, we didn't see the point of fitting the bias valve. As the pressure didn't release until we cracked the calliper nut, they are convinced replacing the flexipipes is the next step, but cannot explain to me why a kinked n/s flexipipe would seize the o/s as well, or why the rear started getting warm. For me, something is causing a build-up of pressure, whether or not I apply any.
We have decided to work back from the callipers, so flexipipes are on order, failing that, matercylinder is probably next unless today's events give anyone any other ideas.

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23 Aug 2019 12:25 #212579 by RainerK
So the fact that also the rear brakes engage means that there is a pressure build up in the braking system as it should be.

Therefore my guess would be that the problem is the master cylinder or the booster or the mechanical arrangement. The last item that could be defect and influences all breaks would be the ABS block, but then I would expect an error code.

As all breakes engage, I would not see any indication to start with the calipers - I think this might be a waste of time.

After inspecting the mechanical arrangement thoroughly, I would go for the master cylinder first, next would be the booster.

If your braking pads and disks are worn, I would of course also change them, but only after the problem with the unwanted self-breaking is solved.

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23 Aug 2019 15:01 #212583 by CC Baxter
Sorry to hear you're still having trouble with this.
It seems to me you're doing all the right things but not necessarily in the right order (to paraphrase Eric Morcambe). If you've paid for the bias valve, fit it anyway. If you can return said item for a refund then don't fit it, bypass it. Get a couple of of double ended female unions and join the lines without the bias valve in place. That might give an indication where the pressure lock is happening. Try to avoid throwing money at this fault. Slow and deliberate diagnosis is the key to such problems. It's clear from your description that this vehicle does not belong on the road in it's present state.
You are getting plenty of good advice from this forum but of course it won't all apply to your situation, none of us are looking over your shoulder.
As a footnote - have you bled the brakes fully (both Calipers both cylinders) working from the farthest corner from the master to the nearest. Bleedin can often reveal faults in the master cylinder and associated valves, fluid is cheap. Stop buying parts on the off chance of a quick fix.
Chris

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27 Aug 2019 18:35 #212751 by Witzend
Thanks, RainerK. It does appear that pressure is building up somehow. I'd already tried disconnecting the servo vacuum before starting this thread, but it still seized, so we ruled that out early on. I also ran it with all three ABS fuses removed in case this was to blame, but again it still did it.

As for the calipers, I didn't mean I was changing them, I meant we are starting at that end and ruling things out one by one.The calipers are free and working OK, so they've suggested changing the flexipipes next - they think that was why they couldn't push back the piston. I've only noticed the rear brakes getting warm twice, and once was when using the handbrake only to see if it still seized without footbrake (every time it seizes I check all four for temperature), so up until recently it appeared to be a front brake problem.

I've got new pads awaiting a solution, but as you say, it's pointless fitting them until it's sorted.

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